Harborough Hustle Podcast

Martin [00:00:00]:
Hello, I’m your podcast host, Martin Robson. Welcome to the Harborough Hustle, where today I’ll be chatting with Jo from Sunrise Care Advisors. After the show, you can check us out on marketharboroughbiznetwork.co.uk/podcast where you can find a transcript of today’s podcast, all the links that are mentioned, posts that you can share on social media to spread the word, and everything you need to know. If you’d like to find out more about our lovely sponsors and all the guests, including Jo, of course, that are featured on Harborough Hustle. Just before we dive in, excuse me, let’s hear from today’s lovely sponsor.

Joanne [00:00:41]:
Are you struggling with tech jargon? Allegiant web Services speaks your language. We demystify AI for small businesses and create websites that work as hard as you do. Tune in to our Allegiant webwise podcast where we break down how modern digital technology impacts your business. Allegiant web services making technology work for you, not the other way around.

Martin [00:01:07]:
Welcome to this episode of Harborough hustle where I am delighted to be chatting with Jo from Sunrise Care Advisors. Hi, Jo.

Joanne [00:01:17]:
Morning, Martin. How are you this morning?

Martin [00:01:19]:
I’m very well, thank you. The sun has deigned to shine and that always makes a pleasant working environment, don’t you think?

Joanne [00:01:27]:
Definitely. Cheers. Cheers the spirits up no end. Yes.

Martin [00:01:31]:
And on that point, course you are known as Sunrise care advisors. So is that linked to the happiness of the sun or is there another?

Joanne [00:01:41]:
No, it is actually because I work in the later life field, funding care and that sort of thing. I’m a care navigator and I just, so much of it seems very sad and dull and boring and sort of, you know, people don’t like having to talk about it. So I chose sunrise just because I thought it needs to be talked about and actually talking about it can actually make you feel better about it.

Martin [00:02:13]:
Fantastic. And I know on a couple of other marketing things, you know, where you’ve done your kind of spiel about things to cheer you up and then left some, some messages behind, but I think it’s a great way to do it. So let’s, let’s come back around and kind of kick off before we get into, you know, what sunrise care advisors actually does. Just find out a little bit about Jo and, you know, where do you live, what you like to do for fun, that sort of stuff.

Joanne [00:02:44]:
Okay, well, I’m a south Leicestershire girl, born and bred. My parents farmed near Lutterworth and so I’ve never moved very far. And when my current husband, Chris, met me. He’d been a traveler for most of his life, all sorts of places. And I was living in the next village, the one I’d been born and brought up in. I think that happens to farming families. So he realized that if he was going to stay with me, his feet were a bit nailed to the ground. Then, four years ago, I have worked outside of Leicestershire, but I’d always lived in Leicestershire.

Joanne [00:03:23]:
Then four years ago, we moved to a village near market Harborough. So my husband had taken early retirement. We wanted to live near a market town, and that’s why we’ve ended up where we are now, which is just on the market Harborough, Northamptonshire border. But work wise, I cover the whole of England and, yeah, and that’s. Yeah, that’s how I ended up here with my family still very close as well, so not spread out. And that made me realize, actually, with the work I do now, just how lucky I have been and my parents were to have family close by, because many of us move a lot more now and a lot further. And I support families where the children are, Australia, Canada, America, etcetera. But the elderly loved their elderly loved ones, their parents or whatever, are still here in England and increasingly aging and need some support.

Martin [00:04:32]:
Right, okay, yeah, this is interesting, listening to that, certain parallels with. With me and my current wife. She was the one who, like you, lived in the same place all the time, and I’m the one who’s lived in country X, Y and Z. So, yeah, we’re working out how to negotiate that difference in life patterns. Pros and cons of both. Both approaches. So summarize. Care advisors, what is it and what does it do?

Joanne [00:05:03]:
Okay, so I’m technically an independent advocate, as designated under the Care Act 2014. But that’s a bit of a mouthful. So I call myself a care navigator and what I do is I don’t provide carers, but I understand how adult social care and the NHS works, or in many cases, sadly now, doesn’t work very well for people over state retirement. When they come, I have to say, I tend to call it crashing into that part of the system, and I understand the acts, the guidance, the regulations and all that sort of thing. But I’ve also been there. I started doing this because my mum, my sister and I were exactly the sort of family that I now support with guidance, completing forms, understanding how the systems work, liaising with adult social care or the NHS, and just general things like that that need to be done if you end up in that position.

Martin [00:06:18]:
Right, that’s very interesting. I mean, are there many people do what you do? Because that’s not something I’ve come across yet, although I’m approaching that point with my own mum, where maybe I will have that need.

Joanne [00:06:33]:
Yeah, there aren’t actually, I would say in England, there’s probably about a dozen of us. And the reason I ended up doing this and retraining was because, as I said, my mum, my sister and I came crashing into adult health and social care about ten or twelve years ago and couldn’t understand what was going on. You start to hear a lot of jargon. We were three intelligent women and we couldn’t understand how the system was supposed to work. My initial degree, my first degree, my first career in local government law was part of my degree and I was a law enforcer, if you like, in local government. I was an environmental health officer. And so I started reading the acts of guidance and regulations because I can do that. And it’s a bit of a quirk that I don’t mind doing it.

Joanne [00:07:34]:
Not everybody’s that keen on it. Just to support my family, basically, just to support me, my mum and my sister and understand what was going on. And I had another business at the time, but you generally have friends of a similar age to you. And people started to say to me, my friends and people I networked with, with my other business colleagues and things, well, you’ve dealt with this. What do we do? So it started off, which is quite appropriate for what you call this, it started off as the modern idiom is as a side hustle, never intended it to be a business or a career. And then gradually, as time went on, I realized that effectively, people like we had, we could have done with someone like me. And so I did the retraining to become an independent advocate. I started gaining experience listening to people who were already doing this and watching information and then gradually doing more and more of it.

Joanne [00:08:44]:
So that’s how I’ve ended up in this. I call it a career lurch, actually, because it wasn’t anything I ever planned to do. But as you say, we’ve got an aging population. If the systems works, people like me wouldn’t be needed. But sadly, the systems don’t work terribly well, so people need some guidance and support.

Martin [00:09:06]:
Yeah, I think that’s super interesting to know that there are people like yourself, albeit I a few, a dozen at the moment. My wife is not native british and now living here, often the questions she asks about the system, whether it be something to do with how do I book a doctor, or how do I see a dentist? Or those sorts of things, I find that if I haven’t used them for a few years, I don’t actually know the detailed answers. I’ve got a general idea, but it doesn’t work the way it used to work. Even simple things like, you know, the phone number 111. Well, that wasn’t there for the first 40 years of my life, let’s say. So, yeah, keeping up to date with all of that must be quite a challenge. You mentioned about being an independent care advisor.

Joanne [00:10:01]:
Independent advocate.

Martin [00:10:02]:
Independent advocate. Sorry, is there a body that kind of certifies that? How does one become an independent advocate?

Joanne [00:10:11]:
No, there isn’t, actually. So coming from the background I did with, as I say, local government law enforcement and local government food inspector, health and safety, pollution control. So I think it can, you know, sounds like. I mean, a lot of people would say I was just a professional interferer, because you’re either in that job telling people to do things they don’t want to do or stop doing things they do want to do. So nobody ever welcomes you over the doorstep. So you have to learn good people skills to encourage, advise, support and help. No, there isn’t. There is.

Joanne [00:10:54]:
Obviously, there are a financial regulations for people who are giving financial advice, and there are legal regulations for people who are giving legal advice. We dropped somewhere in the middle, so I would never give someone financial advice. I would pass them on to someone who’s qualified to do that. I would never give people legal advice on wills, lasting powers of attorney, things like that. I would pass them on to people who can deal with that. We fall a bit in the middle, if you like. There’s no formal regulation, so I just make sure, because of my background, I’m very conscious of that. So I make sure that I do CPD because I do it for myself and to make sure I’m well informed.

Joanne [00:11:39]:
I work for my families to support them, and I have full insurance cover so that if anything were to go wrong, I’m covered. But effectively, I don’t make decisions for families. What I do is I help them to understand, I clarify, I make more transparent what the law says and what the issues are and how systems work so that they can make informed decisions. And that’s the important thing for me. And I have to say, most of the people I work with are what I called. I’ll use my first bit of jargon, self funders, because that’s very often the first bit of jargon that families here, you’ll get a bit of digging into how much money has mum or dad or you got? And then you say you’ve got more than 23,250 pounds in capital assets, and they go, this is what we have. You’re a self funder, go away and sort it out yourself. So how do you source good care? How do you know if it’s good? How do you source care at home or in a care home? Who funds it? What do they mean by a self funder? What about attendance allowance? All these sorts of things.

Joanne [00:12:55]:
And we got the classic response that because mum and dad had worked hard, they’d saved hard, they’d invested, they started investing in the stock market in 1957 ish 58. So because they’d saved and worked hard, then when you hit adult social care, it’s means tested, okay? The NHS free at the point of delivery, we pay for it in our taxes and national insurance, but when we need it, it’s free. Adult social care has always been means tested. And this is what people don’t fully understand, I think, and then they don’t know how to work this work, not work the systems, but understand the systems and know where they stand.

Martin [00:13:42]:
Yeah, no, that’s a really good point. You mentioned 23,250, I think it was capital assets. So does your house count as part of your capital asset? Because I would imagine pretty much everyone who’s got a house, it’s going to be worth more than 23,000 nowadays.

Joanne [00:13:56]:
As long as you’re living in the property or a long term partner or spouse, then no, the house is what’s called a disregard. And this is where people get caught out. The other thing is that the only person who has to pay for their adult social care is the person receiving it. So although you might be a couple and been a long term couple, when it comes to financing your adult social care, what they will do is they just look at the money that the person who’s about to receive the care or applying for care funding has in terms of the capital, assets and income. But the house is a deep disregard. So are other things, but it’s quite complex. And I think the thing with what I do is when people are referred to me, I’m always have a free 30 minutes chat and some of the first things I ask about Will’s lasting powers of attorney, various things like that. And I want an overview because a lot of people come to me and say, I’ve been told to speak to you, but I don’t really know why.

Joanne [00:15:02]:
So my big thing is, tell me your story. Tell me what’s going on in your life or your parents life or whatever at the moment. Just give me an overview, and then I’ll start to pick out the bits that I know are valid, and then I’ll ask a few questions as well, and then I’ll get some idea of what’s going on and whether I can provide some support and advice.

Martin [00:15:27]:
Okay. I feel we’ve just scratched the surface of what goes on, but it’s already quite clear why somebody would need your services and why they wouldn’t think about that until they’re in the circumstances where they definitely need your services. So, yeah, without going too far into all the different bits and pieces, because I’m pretty sure we could do the whole podcast series.

Joanne [00:15:54]:
Yeah. And I don’t want. Yeah, I agree. I just say to people, if they’re not sure, pick up the phone.

Martin [00:16:02]:
Can’t say fairer than that. So let’s just. Just switch back. I mean, some of the questions I normally ask are kind of covered in the journey that you’ve had to get where you are. But is there any one particular thing you find that people just don’t think enough about when they suddenly find themselves in a position where they or a loved one needs adult social care?

Joanne [00:16:28]:
Okay, well, one of the things I say is you need to be thinking about this back in your fifties, okay. And getting things in place, because if you get things in place, like lasting powers of attorney wills, can you future proof your home, the house we move into in our late forties, which we often early fifties, which is our forever home, a lot of people move into that and it’s wonderful. They’ve got family and everything else, but they don’t think about how long can I actually live here? If it’s my forever home, how can it be modified to make sure that I can live here? And age in place is a term we use for as long as possible. So the biggest thing when I’m doing presentations and talks is I’m actually saying almost, because most of the people who come to me, the adult children, what I’m saying is you’re dealing with this with your parents now because things weren’t put in place. You need to start thinking about it now and getting things in place, because once they’re in place, you can forget about them and not worry about them. We are living longer, we’re living with more chronic conditions, and if we think about it sooner and work on our general health and things like that, we can work towards having a good old age experience.

Martin [00:17:48]:
Okay. That makes all the sense. Can you give me one specific example of future proofing your home?

Joanne [00:17:55]:
Yes, I can. And I’ve even had someone do a blog on it for me. So just look at the levels and things like that. So access is the key thing. A lot of people find they can’t manage stairs or it’s an old property, there’s lots of steps, ups and downs. Have you, can you put in, say, a downstairs or level access shower somewhere? You know, if you can’t physically walk up the stairs, can you modify the ground floor or can you get stair lifts in? So it’s looking at things like that, extra handrails and plenty of light as well. So that as your eyesight fades, which it does for all of us, if you’ve got plenty of natural light, then that that’s good. And also look at your garden.

Joanne [00:18:46]:
If you love your garden, are you going to be putting in slopes or just make it easier to negotiate? What happens if you’re less able or less steady on your feet? Are you going to be able to sort of manage it and maybe make a few changes or not make them now, but know that you can put those things in place so that you can still get out. For me, getting out into my garden is just a key thing for my life. And not to be able to do that would be really bad for my mental health.

Martin [00:19:20]:
Yeah, yeah, no, I think you’re right. That’s true for a lot of people. And I think particularly if I look at my mum, for example, I mean, my dad’s past now for quite a few years, so that garden space becomes even more important, I think, in some respects than it was before. So it’s a very good point. Just switching slightly to summarize care advisors as a business then. Is there anything that you wish you’d known before you started it as a business outside of the specifics of social care that you could tell a younger Jo, think about this.

Joanne [00:19:59]:
Yeah, I think, well, I had already come out of local government, had business before, and I made quite a lot of my mistakes there in terms of trying to please all the people all the time. You can’t. Not understanding my market, you know, the things that people talk about, about niching down and understanding. I didn’t. Coming out of local government, people don’t have a choice for what? For coming to you. So a lot of the marketing and that side of it was really hard for me and it took me a lot of learning and a lot of mistakes. So I think that I brought into what I do now. And understanding that actually my market is not actually the older people, it’s the adult children, it’s people like my sister and I were in our fifties, so I made those mistakes.

Joanne [00:20:55]:
The other thing was that I just. One of the things that lockdown forced me to do, because I’d always just worked in Leicester, Leicestershire and close by and I’d not embraced Zoom teams, anything like that at all. And it forced me to realize that if I was going to still have a business, I needed to embrace it because a lot of what I do can be done remotely. So, I mean, I could still feel my shoulders coming up around my ears when I talked. But it was really hard initially, but I gradually got more relaxed at it and realized that people valued it. And that’s why I now support. Can support families where they’re much more widespread. You know, I can have meetings where, you know, as I did recently, mum and dad are up in the north of the country, or mum is up in the north of the country.

Joanne [00:21:53]:
One of the daughters who’ve heard about me through my networking and referrals is here in the Midlands. Another child, adult child, was down in south London, but we were able to have a Zoom meeting like this to discuss everything out in the open and have a chat. And a carer had set up the Zoom meeting for mum so that everybody could be included. So this is why I now do cover England. I don’t cover Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, because the law is different, but I can now provide access over England and beyond. So it really opened up my business and I now feel much more relaxed about using it, using things. I know this is Google, it’s not one I’ve used before, so this is interesting to me because I haven’t used this. So a nice experiment for me, but, yeah, those are the main things I’ve learned, I think.

Martin [00:22:54]:
Yeah. And that’s really interesting for me, I mean, being in the kind of, you know, web and digital industry, because we were all using tools like that way before the pandemic amongst ourselves. But whenever you had to go and see a client, generally speaking, you would have to go and pitch up in person. And there’s definitely value in pitching up in person. But as you say, you know, if you’ve got somebody in the north of England and somebody in the south and someone in the midlands, that takes a whole lot more organizing and time than popping onto a zoom. So, yeah, I mean, obviously the pandemic had a lot of bad things. How’s that for understatement of the day. But there were silver linings and I think the greater adoption of some of the tech has been a plus for most people, as long as you use it in the correct way.

Martin [00:23:44]:
Of course I agree.

Joanne [00:23:46]:
And it’s also meant because I do do presentations to financial advisors and so solicitors and things like that. So I’ve done that for companies in various parts of England where, you know, they may have a monthly team meeting and they get me on to talk about the bit that I do and how it links in with supporting. Because what I’m trying to provide is this holistic support. I call them my families because it is families I’m dealing with on the whole, it’s not individuals and this holistic support where I can pull in other people to support that family or guide them to someone else or suggest they take some of their advice. So it really helps me doing these presentations to financial advisors and solicitors and other organizations to say, look, you do your bit because we really need you. I can provide this umbrella of talking to people and sometimes translating, I think clarifying, you know, transparency, translation almost as to what is actually needed and what’s going on. Because I’m not a financial specialist or a legal specialist in those terms.

Martin [00:25:00]:
No, I think that makes an awful lot of sense. You know, we have a lot of different systems in, in this country, but even, you know, when I bump into them, unfortunately, I haven’t crashed into one yet. But, you know, that may come. You already get the feeling that there isn’t that kind of umbrella that just gels things together. There are a number of charities that do amazing work in trying in very specific areas, but the sort of area you’re talking about, you know, I can see clearly why we’d need something like that. So in confession time business point of view, what would you say has been your biggest mistake and what did you learn from it?

Joanne [00:25:47]:
Oh, gosh, right. I’m trying to think of that. I think my biggest mistake was early on in that I thought that I would just be dealing with the old, older person themselves and I hadn’t factored in, which was ridiculous, really, because I came into this because it was me. My mum and my sister hadn’t fully factored in that I was actually dealing with a whole family. So the older person themselves would be dealing with me and then obviously then the family would find out and then they’d be on to me. What are you doing? Because we’re all much more aware that the, there’s sadly people out there who will take advantage of old. Well, anybody. But older people are particularly vulnerable.

Joanne [00:26:39]:
So I think that was the mistake I made, was not sort of with the permission of the person I’m speaking to, pulling in the whole family and saying, look, this is who I am. Check me out. Have a look at me. I’ve got my websites, I’ve got my social media. I can send you. I’m registered with the, oh, one’s gone out of my name, you know, the one that looks after people who handle sensitive data. So I’m registered with them, the information commissioner’s office and things like that. So I’m legit and above board, and what I’m offering is legit and above board.

Joanne [00:27:19]:
So I think not being clear enough really caused some friction on occasions at the start, but I’m better at that now.

Martin [00:27:29]:
Okay, yeah, no, that’s a really good point. And just outside of your business, I know if you talk to marketers and they go into their tech speak, they’re talking about ICA’s ideal client avatars. But it’s all about exactly knowing who actually are your potential customers and how do you get them involved so that you can deliver the best solution for them. And in your world, of course, we’re talking about the old person, we’re talking about the family. But it’s the same business lesson across different industries, isn’t it, about focusing and knowing who your customers are going to be? Let’s switch it around, Jo. Let’s switch it around and talk about your proudest business moment.

Joanne [00:28:12]:
One of them was being contacted by a financial advisor who understands what I do and what I offer to speak to a client of hers who had been, as I start, I talked about this paying. Her husband was in residential care. His money had run out, so she’d been paying out of her money. No one had advised her to go to adult social care and apply for funding. And I got her back 25,000 pounds of money that she paid out.

Martin [00:28:48]:
Wow.

Joanne [00:28:49]:
Which was made a huge difference because both retired, you know, not huge sums of money, so I did that. But I think in general, it’s when I get things, I get people phone me up who are so stressed. And I had a lady not long ago who phoned me up, who was just trying to sort things out for her mother and was so stressed. And at the end of it said, I am feeling. My heart rate has dropped during this phone call. I am feeling so much calmer. I really appreciate the time you’ve taken to talk to me, and yes, we will want you to help with various bits and pieces. But she said, I just feel I’ve got someone on my side now.

Martin [00:29:35]:
Yeah, that’s fantastic. And time and time again, you know, when I ask people that question, it’s about the positive effect they’ve had on somebody else’s life, either lowering stress or, you know, things like that where you think, yeah, I really helped that person. And, you know, that’s fantastic to hear. And I can imagine that being a repeatable event for you, you know, because obviously, this is a highly emotional part of people’s life when they get into this situation. So having someone on their side must be an enormous plus.

Joanne [00:30:10]:
I think it helps that I explain to people that I started off doing this because my mum, my sister and I were theme. So I’ve been there and I fully understand what they’re going through, and I can support them. And I just love doing this, actually, I get a huge amount of satisfaction from it. And I speak to so many really interesting people and families, and it’s great. I absolutely love it.

Martin [00:30:39]:
Which is also wonderful to hear, because at the end of the day, if we’re running our own business and we don’t love what we’re doing, then you kind of why you’re doing it. But even so, you know, to actually find something that you love doing and to be able to do it is wonderful. An idea that we stole from Stephen Bartlett because his podcast is not doing too badly at the moment. Diary of a CEO was to take a question from a previous guest and ask it to a future guest. Okay, so there’s a lady we both know, Carmen.

Joanne [00:31:13]:
Yes.

Martin [00:31:14]:
Who wanted to ask if there was any particular book that had helped you with your business.

Joanne [00:31:20]:
Okay. Yes, I think. Well, there’s two. One’s English, one’s american. So can I give you both.

Martin [00:31:27]:
You certainly can.

Joanne [00:31:28]:
With me because of this question. So the first one I read was a book by Atul Gawande, which is Gawande, and it’s called being mortal. And the subtitle is illness, medicine, and what matters in the end. And it really made me think about, you know, what he talks about in there is what I talked about, about the planning and made me think much more deeply about what matters to us. And he’s worked in palliative care and general medicine. And then I think our best, one of our best local, that is UK authors, is Catherine Mannix. I mean, she’s had a number of Sunday times bestsellers. She’s written listen and with the end in mind, and it’s how to live and die well, and it’s very moving.

Joanne [00:32:26]:
But again, she’s been a palliative care nurse all her life and then has come out and now helps people and trains and talks to people like me so that when we’re talking to families that know their loved ones are coming to the end of their lives, we can understand, and we can also understand for the person it’s happening to, what’s going on and how they may be feeling and how to approach things. And it’s made me, I think, much more emotionally receptive, but also allows me to understand and protect myself a bit as well. But it helps me also to guide my families and know sort of things to say. And I often recommend her books. Listen and with the end in mind. The Gawande one is more, I think, medical, more from a professional point of view, but her books are so readable for anybody. Okay, highly recommend them.

Martin [00:33:28]:
Fantastic. And, you know, as I always say to listeners, viewers, you know, we, we do put down all of the links on the website afterwards, which will reference time and time again, but I’ll make sure that both of those are there. So go check out, you know, listeners, do go check out the, the books that Jo is talking about because, you know, certainly, I mean, like you say, for the, for the, the UK one, which is perhaps not so medically orientated. It’s going to be applicable to everyone. We will all get there at some point, sooner or later, as they say. I always ask people if there’s something still on their list of things to do. And so I think I should do that for you as well. Any amazing, not even amazing.

Martin [00:34:18]:
Anything particular that you want to experience or achieve?

Joanne [00:34:21]:
Um, yeah, I’m, I’ve wound this down. It takes me the equivalent about, I work about the equivalent about three days a week. My husband’s fully retired. I can’t, I can’t think about retiring. My parents, my dad was in his seventies, like most farmers before he retired. So this fits really nicely. And I love what I’m doing. I would like to do more of Europe and I, down into Greece and Italy, of some of the major cities, haven’t done enough of them.

Joanne [00:34:57]:
And I would like to. We’re talking about potentially doing a bit of. A little bit of a road trip next year to do some of that and just pick an area. Not, not everywhere, obviously, just pick an area and do some of that for a couple of weeks and then maybe find somewhere else the following year because I’m fascinated by history and beautiful buildings and art and things like that. So, yeah, I’ve got not one specific, but I think I need to educate myself a bit more on Europe, basically.

Martin [00:35:32]:
Fantastic. And like I say, with a bit of a travel lust inside me, I can emphasize with that very strongly. So. Sounds great. Joy, it’s been really fascinating getting to know a bit more about you, about what you do and how people can, can get in touch and talking about that website, socials, etc. How do we get in touch if we want to know more?

Joanne [00:35:56]:
Okay, well, I’ve got my website, sunrisecareadvisors.co.uk. I have a business Facebook page. I’m on LinkedIn. And when you go on to LinkedIn and on my website, there’s a button you can click to book a call with me and my phone numbers are on there. But my mobile phone, which you can use, is 0774-028-9569 if I can answer, I will, otherwise leave a message and I’ll get back to. And I always get back to people.

Martin [00:36:34]:
All that will be on the site as well, of course, but been brilliant. I always forget to ask one particular thing. So my final question is, of course, what have I forgotten to ask you, Jo?

Joanne [00:36:51]:
I don’t think there’s anything you’ve forgotten to ask me. I just think it’s even more important now to be planning. We know that our NHS and our care systems, despite the fact that wonderful, caring people working them, are struggling. And so it is just prepare, talk. One of the things I say, a few years ago, one of the banks ran a campaign, we need to talk about the m word, which was money. We don’t like talking about money. And I sort of plagiarise that and say we need to talk about the c word, which is care, and start the conversations early within our families so that expectations can be set and people can understand what people are looking for and what they would like these last 1020 years of their lives to look like.

Martin [00:37:49]:
Brilliant. Okay, wonderful. Note to end on, as I said before, thank you very much. It’s been a great pleasure and I’ll catch up with you soon.

Joanne [00:37:58]:
Lovely. Nice talking to you, Martin.

Martin [00:38:00]:
Okay, bye, Jo. Bye.